Sunday, November 16, 2008

My Humble Acession to Mr. Lundahl

If any of you have been following, Hans Lundahl and I had an extensive debate about something. It boiled down to this:

OFL: You cannot trust commonsense's approval of "dissonance only up to so far," because this judgment is of a nature that is easily changed by experience and because other things that people react to in the same way are things that people who have not been jaded by exposure to vast varieties of music disagree upon.

Lundahl: You can trust this because the fact that experience causes the approval of the more dissonant music points to such experience being a sort of jading that dulls the perceptions of common sense.

The argument hinges around whether or not the perception of the non-jaded falls under the ground of undeniable common sense. (Undeniable common sense also includes such things as:
Our 5 senses tell us useful things about the world, the rules of logic are valid, etc.; but not things such as things always fall when they are dropped, it is good not to offend people, etc.)

Now perhaps it can be proven that this judgment is common sense (and thus Lundahl wins). But even if it cannot, unless it can be disproven, it can be proven that it is more likely that the statement is true rather than false. Here's how:

1. Consider any statement that has no evidence for it being either true or false. (example: Our senses provide us with useful information about the world outside ourselves.)

2. You cannot consider this statement, by itself, to have less than a 50% chance of being true.

3. Theoretically, it is possible that you could construct multiple proofs (or prooves) based on another statement that has no evidence for it being true or false that, if the second statement were true, the first would also be true. (For example, the statement in part one would be true if common sense were a valid guide of human thought OR if there is a Benevolent God Who would not fool us by giving us senses that didn't do anything real. This assumes, of course, that there is no evidence for or against God, a statement that is quite false but that we are pretending is true for the sake of argument.)

4. Each of these statements and proofs also cannot be considered to have less than a 50% chance of being true.

5. For the original statement to be true, any of the secondary statements must be true. But for the original statement to be false, ALL of the secondary statements must be false. Therefore, it is more likely that a statement that has no evidence whatsoever concerning it is a true statement than a false statement. This argument ought to hold up (though not convince) under the fire of any musical modernist skeptic.

8 comments:

Ancient Greek Philosopher said...

Okay, are you saying that
dissonance is morally bad,
or that most people don't
like it? I would say that
dissonance can easily be
disguised, and people
would like it. The major
seventh chord is a dissonance,
yet it is used in many pieces
that are very popular.

Hans Georg Lundahl said...

major seventh interval in two voices of a chord:

artistically bad?

yes, but only when unmitigated

many very popular pieces include major seventh chord, like CEGB

dissonances:
CB only

consonances:
CE, CG
EG, EB
GB

Old Fashioned Liberal said...

Mr. Lundahl and I say that dissonance is neither morally bad nor unpopular. I say (I don't know about Mr. Lundahl) that certain treatments of it are artistically bad, a condition similar to, but not identical with nor as serious as, morally bad.

I am not sure that I find the chord you mention artistically bad. I like it, but I am unfortunately musically jaded, as Mr. Lundahl will tell you. If the chord resolves properly, there is no problem, of course. But if it doesn't...Mr. Lundahl says it is still o.k. based on common sense. You, AgP, I am sure will say it is not. Back before I was jaded, I think I would have agreed with AGP.

Whether it is or not, if this is all that your commonsense disagrees upon, I wouldn't say that it is enough to throw the commonsense idea out altogether

Hans Georg Lundahl said...

Excuse me, I say that unmitigated major seventh simultaneous interval is unpopular, and the reason major seventh chord is not, is the mitigation by the consonances.

Old Fashioned Liberal said...

Ah. You've always used this sort of dissonance-consonance system of justification to find out whether music was good, not whether it was just popular. I forgot that if it is good, it can be popular too. Please forgive my misuderstanding.

Ancient Greek Philosopher said...

I don't think that it's necessarily
bad if it doesn't resolve. I myself
have used the major seventh chord
without resolving the dissonance.

Hans Georg Lundahl said...

a) I am using music theory to avoid bad surprises

if it is good, without being clumsy, it will be popular

b) I am not saying resolution is the only way of dealing with dissonance

in another realm confer vinegar

you pickle herrings or vegetables in vinegar, but you don't drink all the liquid along with the herrings or vegetables

you have vinegar in vinaigrettes and mayos, but in both there is more oil than vinegar, and in the use of both there is more non-sour solid foods than sauce that includes vinegar

in the major seventh chord the proportions are equally reassuring, as stated above

Old Fashioned Liberal said...

I like your analogy, but I wouldn't use it to prove anything because not only is it an analogy (and thus not perfect, but I like plain vinegar (in reasonable quantities, like one teaspoon) but not mayo or plain pickle juice. Don't worry; not all Americans are as wierd as I.